“What did Barclay say and do in his commentary introduction that, (along with early church Father Clement), was so wrong that would make me reject the gospel of John if their claims were true about its motivations being written?”

The answer in short is: ‘They did not REJECT PLATO’S APPLE.’

William Barclay EMBRACED the platonic PAGAN world views in his introduction and therefore embraced a lie and gnostic philosophy. After reading the below excerpt from James Thwaites, read Barclay and watch the Kong Hee youtube video again. You will see it this time. Barclay accidentally rejected the Hebraic identity and understanding of God and His creation and accepted Plato’s identity and understanding of ‘God’ and it’s creation world view, and says that: “John presented Jesus as the mind of God in a person come to earth, and as the one person who possesses reality instead of shadows, and who can lead men out of the shadows into the real world which Plato and the Greeks dreamed of. The Christianity which had once been clothed in Jewish categories has taken to itself the greatness of the thoughts of the Greeks.”

I was very surprised and disturbed that an early church father like Clement could be so wrong (if what Barclay said about him was right). In his first book ‘Church Beyond The Congregation’, James Thwaites addresses that the early church missed the Platonic Philosophy entering into the church through Greek-thinking converts.

Now I will be answering the question indepth by quoting James Thwaites. In the below blurb he cuts right to the Gnostic and cult-like lie of the Platonic DNA. We can see how this affects politics, propaganda, our society, our local community, business, advertising and worst of all – the impact it has on the church:

“We need to consider the historical contexts in which Plato’s philosophy emerged if we are to understand his agenda. I noted in The Church Beyond the Congregation how the move away from present-world idolatry towards other-realm idealism happened during the same period that Israel was purged of idolatry via the judgement of exile.

Plato in the West and Buddha in the East both broke away from the idol and posited an ideal realm only accessible via pure thought and contemplation. I believe that this move away from idolatry towards idealism could have been Satan’s response to the events that were happening in Israel.

Going further now into the more immediate context in which Plato lived and developed his philosophy, we arrive in Athens, Greece during the period 427-347 BC. During his life Plato experienced political turmoil and wars. In his early years Athens was ruled by a tribal aristocracy, of which Plato’s family was a part. This rule by aristocrats broke down and was replaced by the rule of democracy – a system strongly opposed to the rule of royals or demagogues. Democratic Athens fought a long and terrible war against Sparta during the time of Plato’s youth. At that time a tribal aristocracy ruled Sparta. This war lasted for twenty-eight years and bought with it famines, plagues, the fall of Athens, civil war and a rule of terror, which was called the rule of the THrity Tyrants – two of the leaders of which were Plato’s uncles(of aristocratic lineage). The tyrants were finally overthrown and democracy re-established. This democratic rule did not, however mean a return to stability or safety for Athens or Plato. It was during this rule that Socrates was sentenced to death. Plato’s life was also in danger at this time; he left Athens as a consequence and, among other destinations, sojourned at Sicily, where it appears he was involved in some degree of political intrigue. He finally returned to Athens, set up the school and penned the works for which he is famous.

It is important to understand that the philosophy of idealism did not develop in a political or social vacuum. The worldview that has been the single most powerful influence on the Western and Christian mind came from a critical time in history of the divine plan. It also emerged from a young aristocrat whose life had been strongly traumatized by the destruction of a system in which his family held a privileged position. As the name of the work that Plato is famous for suggests – The Republic – Plato’s agenda in putting forth his philosophy of idealism and dualism was social and political. He was not a freethinking, otherworldly sage living humbly in a monastery. He was a man of privilege and ambition, living in a city that has powerfully influenced the course of human development. It could be said that what Jerusalem is for religion, Athens is for humanism. In this light, let’s look again at the platonic philosophy. From there we will uncover the serpent’s agenda enacred in and through its divided worldview.

By way of summary of Plato’s theory of forms and ideals, I include here a quote from Karl Popper:

“The things in flux, the degenerate and decaying things, are (like the state) the offspring, the children, as it were, of perfect things. And like children, they are copies of their original

primogenitors. The father or original of a thing in flux is what Plato calls its ‘ Form ‘ or its ‘ Pattern ‘ or its c Idea ‘. As before, we must insist that the Form or Idea, in spite of its name, is no * idea in our mind * ; it is not a phantasm, nor a dream, but a real thing. It is, indeed, more real than all the ordinary things which are in flux, and which, in spite of their apparent solidity,

are doomed to decay ; for the Form or Idea is a thing that is perfect, and does not perish.

The Forms or Ideas must not be thought to dwell, like perishable things, in space and time. They are outside space, and also outside time (because they are eternal). But they are

in contact with space and time ; for since they are the primo- genitors of the things which develop and decay in space and time, they must have been in contact with space, at the beginning of time.”

Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies. Volume 1. Plato, p. 25

… Plato set up a situation that would necessitate a particular response. He created a problem that would call forth a solution designed by him. It’s well-known political ploy; create a predicament and then offer a tailor-made solution to it – a solution that just happens to require your services. Plato established a world in which there existed a removed, fixed and eternal status quo, one that to finite being could directly access or change. It logically followed on from this that because that ideal realm was real and this present world was not, then people would need to have someone or something in place that could access the ideal on their behalf.

The vehicle that Plato had in mind for this job was the ‘State’ and the ruler he had in mind to take charge of that state was ‘the philosopher king’. In fact the whole of the Republic can be seen as Plato’s less than subtle attempt to put himself towards Athens as a wise and noble (one might even say ideal) aristocrat, ready, if invited, to take the reigns of power and rule the people. The State, ruled by the likes of Plato, would be the most suitable vehicle for the job because it was best able to approximate the ideal realm and transmit its reality to the people of that State. It could be established ‘thought’, fixed by law and be trusted, unlike the people, to remain true to the ideal from whence it came because it was not human and changeable. For Plato, the State, even though it was of this present realm and thus not perfect, was the highest and best expression of good that finite and corrupted individuals could experience. As such, it was the finest suitor to occupy the centre and, with some help from the best available philosopher king at the time, rule the people.

Once the State was in place a status quo would be established that would be extremely hard for anyone to budge. Plato’s philosophical justification for the rigid fixedness of his State system derives from his definition of ‘good’. In the Republic ‘good’ is explained as everything that preserves and ‘evil’ as everything that destroys or corrupts.

“This view is used for evaluating the general trend and main directions of all changes in the world of sensible things. For if the starting point of all change is perfect and good (already arrived), then change can only b a movement that leads away from the pefect and good; it must be directed towards the imperfect and the evil, towards corruption.”

Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies. Volume 1. Plato, p. 36.

This mean that any variation or move away from the absolute, an absolute that just happened to be defined by the State, was a corruption. Thus, once in place, the ruling institution could argue, on the basis of its version of the way things are, that anyone suggesting change or agitating for the new was an evil person. And they, being evil, could not (by platonic definition) be representing something good. Once you set up rules that suit your own agenda, and convince people that they are divine rules, then it is very had for people to manoeuvre – unless of course they do so in line with the maze you have set up for them.” – James Thwaites, Renegotiating The Church Contract, pg 113 – 117.

Finally, James Thwaites says:

“Platonic philosophy creates an immense need that can only be filled by its own agenda. It convinces us that reality is something removed from our life in creation. It takes a hold of shared ideas and human desires and attaches their arrival of fulfillment to its own version of the eternal realm. To help feeble humans access this fabricated realm it sets up an authority construct and places it at the centre of their community. Over this institution it then places leaders who possess, by birth or by calling, the divine ‘right to rule’ the people from that centre. Once the authority construct is in place it is deemed, by virtue of its position, to be the good and any variation to it is defined as aberrant and thus evil. It is able to live fat, ever increasing its authority by feeding itself on the hunger, fear and addiction it has induced in people’s lives because it appears to supply their need for meaning, security and significance. In this way Plato set up a version of reality that enabled the elite few to take hold of a creation idea, attach it to the ideal realm and use its now twisted power to take charge of the masses. From idea, to ideal to ideology the platonic agenda works to ensure that the elite at the centre, the possessors of the ideal, will take and hold power over people. This is its DNA, this is its plan, this is the reason why the platonic worldview came into being and has been so powerfully used down through history to serve the enemy’s purpose.

“The greatest principle of all,” he writes, “is that nobody, whether male or female, should ever be without a leader. Nor should the mind of anybody be habituated to letting him do anything at all on his own initiative, neither out of zeal, nor even playfully. But in war and in the midst of peace – to his leader he shall direct his eye, and follow him faithfully. And even in the smallest matters he should stand under leadership. For example, he should get up, or move, or wash, or take his meals…only if he has been told to do so…In a word, he should teach his soul, by long habit, never to dream of acting independently, and to become utterly incapable of it. In this way the life of all will be spent in total community. There is no law, nor will there ever be one, which is superior to this, or better and more effective in ensuring salvation and victory in war. And in times of peace, and from the earliest childhood on should it be fostered – this habit of ruling others, and of being ruled by others. And every trace of anarchy should be utterly eradicated from all the life of all the man, and even of the wild beasts which are subject to men.”

Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies. Volume 1. Plato, p. 103.

Popper’s comments on these startling words are perhaps the best initial comment that can be made:

“Never was a man more in earnest in his hostility towards the individual. And this hatred is deeply rooted in the fundamental dualism of Plato’s philosophy ; he hated the individual and his freedom just as he hated the varying particular experiences, the variety of the changing world of sensible things. In the field of politics, the individual is to Plato the Evil One himself.”

Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies. Volume 1. Plato, p. 103f.

To see for yourself Plato say this from his own writings, you can read it here:

“The great principle of all is that no one of either sex should be without a commander; nor should the mind of any one be accustomed to do anything, either in jest or earnest, of his own motion, but in war and in peace he should look to and follow his leader, even in the least things being under his guidance; for example, he should stand or move, or exercise, or wash, or take his meals, or get up in the night to keep guard and deliver messages when he is bidden; and in the hour of danger he should not pursue and not retreat except by order of his superior; and in a word, not teach the soul or accustom her to know or understand how to do anything apart from others. Of all soldiers the life should be always and in all things as far as possible in common and together; there neither is nor ever will be a higher, or better, or more scientific principle than this for the attainment of salvation and victory in war. And we ought in time of peace from youth upwards to practise this habit of commanding others, and of being commanded by others; anarchy should have no place in the life of man or of the beasts who are subject to man.”

Source: http://www.philosophy-index.com/plato/laws/xii.php

We’ll hopefully be examining some contemporary issues from the above blurbs. The Kong Hee YouTube video will be used as an example among others, to see how this gnostic pagan philosophy has permeated the church and makes preachers preach lies that they aren’t weary of.

William Barclay wrote in his commentary, ‘The Gospel of John, Vol 1‘ (pg xxiii):

“They [Greek] had the conception of two worlds. The Greek always conceived of two worlds. The one was the world in which we live. It was a wonderful world in its way but was a world of shadows and copies and unrealities. The other was the real world, in which the great realities of which our earthly things are only poor, pale copies stand forever. To the Greek the unseen world was the real world; the seen world was only shadowy unreality. It was Plato who systematised this way of thinking in his doctrine of forms or ideas. He held that in the unseen world there was the perfect pattern of everything, and the things of this world were shadowy copies of these eternal patterns. To put it quite simply, Plato held that somewhere there was a perfect pattern of a table of which all earthly tables are inadequate copes; somewhere there was the perfect pattern of the good and the beautiful of which all earthly goodness and earthly beauty are imperfect and inadequate copies. And the great reality, the supreme idea, the pattern of all patterns, and the form of all forms is God.” (pg xxiii)

The context of Barclay writing the above, was to explain why ‘John’ wrote the Gospel of John of the New Testament. Now Barclay goes on to say,

“Now the great problem was how to get into this world of reality, how to get out of our shadows into the eternal truths. It is John’s answer that that is what Jesus enables us to do. Jesus is reality come to earth. The Greek word for real in this sense is alēthinos; it is very closely connected with the word alēthēs, which means true, alētheia, which means the truth. When the Authorised Version comes on alēthinos it translates it true; it would be far better to translate it real. Jesus is the real light (1:9). Jesus is the real bread (6:32). Jesus is the real vine (15:1); to Jesus belongs the real judgment (8:16). Jesus alone has reality in our world of shadows and imperfections.” (pg xxiii-xxiv)

Did you see what Barclay did? Let’s read on and see if you picked up something unusual in what he is writing now:

“Now something follows from that. Every action that Jesus did was, therefore, not only an act in time, but a window which allows us to see into reality. That is what John means when he talks of Jesus’ miracles as signs sēmeia. The wonderful works of Jesus were not simply wonderful; they were windows opening up on to the reality which is God. This explains the way in which John tells the miracle stories…”

Again on page xxv he says:

“To John the miracles were not simply single events in time; they were illustrations, examples, insights into that which God is always doing and what Jesus always is; they are windows into the reality of God.”

And again:

“To John, a miracle was never an isolated fact; it was always a window into the reality of that which Jesus always was and always is and always did and always does. It was with this in his mind that that greta scholar Clement of Alexandria (about A.D. 230) arrived at one of the most famous and true of all verdicts about the purpose and origin and aim of the Fourth Gospel. It was his view that the gospels containing the genealogies had been written first – that is, Luke and Matthew; that then Mark at the first request of many who had heard Peter preach composed his gospel, which embodied the preaching material of Peter; and that then “last  of all, John, perceiving that what had reference to the bodily things of Jesus’ ministry had been sufficiently related, and encouraged by his friends, and inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote a spiritual gospel.” (Quoted in Eusebius, The Ecclesiastical History 6:14).  What Clement meant was that John was not so much interested in mere facts, as in the meaning of the facts, that it was not facts that he was after, but truth…” (pg xxv)

Surely you’re seeing the derailment now!

“… John did not see the events of Jesus’ life simply as events in time; he saw them as windows looking into eternity, and he pressed towards the spiritual meaning of the events and the words of Jesus’ life in a way that the other three gospels did not attempt. That is still one of the truest verdicts on the Fourth Gospel that has ever been arrived at. John did write, not an historical, but a spiritual gospel.

So then, first of all, John presented Jesus as the mind of God in a person come to earth, and as the one person who possesses reality instead of shadows, and who can lead men out of the shadows into the real world which Plato and the Greeks dreamed of. The Christianity which had once been clothed in Jewish categories has taken to itself the greatness of the thoughts of the Greeks.” (pg xxv – pg xxvi)

Do you see it? If this was the ‘correct verdict’ that we have to draw on the Gospel of John, I would have no problem rejecting this book from the canon of scripture and declaring it a gnostic gospel. You may be thinking that’s quite a claim.

If you’re still scratching your head, here’s a youtube video of Kong Hee preaching a clue to the above:

I will explain the answer in the next article.

[Images from http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast221/lectures/lec01.html]

“As I was considering, behold, a he-goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth without touching the ground, and the goat had a conspicuous and remarkable horn between his eyes.

…

And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the [river] Ulai which called and said, Gabriel, make this man [Daniel] understand the vision…

… “And he said, Behold, I will make you know what will be in the latter time of the indignation [of God upon the ungodly], for it has to do with the time of the end. The ram you saw having two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia. And the shaggy and rough he-goat is the king of Greece, and the great horn between his eyes is the first king [who consolidated the whole realm, Alexander the Great].

And as for the horn which was shattered, in whose place four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise out of his nation but not having his [Alexander's] power.”

Do you see it? Where else in scripture do you here about the Goat?

Try Matthew 25!

Matt 25:31-3 When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.

Greece is still the kingdom of the West! We still have Greece’s God’s, philosophies and cultural practices and sciences. We still think like Greece! We still carry the spirit of Pagan Greece even in the church. Now that the church is losing any remaining influence in the West, the West is naturally returning to it’s hedonistic pagan Grecian roots. This is what we always were. But this Grecian influence is still spreading across the globe to this day. The Kingdom of God and His sheep are not of the same. One kingdom says ‘yes’ to all gods that exalt ourselves to a position of God.

Is there a correlation and coincidence to Greece being portrayed as the goat and the unregenerate people of the End Times being portrayed as the goat?

Why did I call this blog ‘Rejecting Plato’s Apple‘?

I found James Thwaites summarised his entire writings from ‘Church Beyond The Congregation’ and ‘Renegotiating the Church Contract’ well:

“The same addiction to the idol as continued down to this day. The serpent’s action in the Garden was no different to what he did via Plato in the fifth century BC. The ideal other was simply upgraded to match the move in Israel (precipitated by the judgement of exile) away from idolatry to a more consistent monotheism; hence the statement; platonic idealism is just a more sophisticated form of idolatry.” - James Thwaites, Renegotiating the Church Contract, pg. 103

To me, if we reject Plato’s philosophy, we’ll be rejecting Satan’s apple. We will be rejecting the idol of the mind. He goes onto say:

“Plato simply moved our attachment to the instinctual away from the creature and to the conceptual. As such, idols were no longer feathered, furry or of wood and stone. Now they were made of pure, invisible thought. The idol as ideal was no longer earthy, tangible and present; it was now spiritual, abstract and future-oriented. It still, however, retained the quality so necessary to Satan, i.e. the fixed, arrived, absolute and complete feel. Adding strength to this new version of instinctual life was the (apparent) attachment of the ideal to the transcendent realm. We had upgraded from idols and animals to ideals and eternals, but essentially the old operating system had remained very much in place.

Dow through history the best way to house, protect and express the idol or the ideal has been the authority construct. Priests aligned to rulers have generally always spoken for the dumb idol. In the Roman Empire these were joined as one in Caesar. Throughout subsequent history the emperor, king, state or institution has held, on behalf of the people, the right to own and thus speak for the idol or the ideal. The apparent reality that the idol or the ideal contains is used to justify the right of the authority construct to exist and exercise its power. Idealism is a catalyst for institutionalism and the institution is a catalyst for idealism. It has always been a very convenient marriage. One… that produces a powerful offspring named ideology.” “The same addiction to the idol as continued down to this day. The serpent’s action in the Garden was no different to what he did via Plato in the fifth century BC. The ideal other was simply upgraded to match the move in Israel (precipitated by the judgement of exile) away from idolatry to a more consistent monotheism; hence the statement; platonic idealism is just a more sophisticated form of idolatry.

We have come along way from the days when pharoah was declared divine and thus determined the life and fate of so many. Now the most powerful construct on the planet is the corporation and the most powerful form of idealism is consumerism. The church has kept well in step with the journey of the ideal – generally mimicking and, whenever possible, marrying the power brokers as they moved from empire, to state, to institution, to corporation. When future life idealism predominated the church was more necessary to the emperors and monarchs.” - James Thwaites, Renegotiating the Church Contract, pg. 104

I’m just going to start talking about me and my experiences leading up to reading James Thwaites materials.

The above is one of my favorite parts of the entire book. This spoke to me so much, because this is what I discovered while going through high school. It was great to have someone else confirm my views and spiritual experiences.

For my major work, I combined Egyptians and images of the divine and pharaoh to the contemporary corporations and governments. I was exploring the power of ideology and how a greater power seemed to determine how man thinks and behaves. My understanding in how the media operates out of immorality rather then truth opened my eyes. In my art started depicting elements of reality of the media and turning the mass media giant into a filthy consumeristic, thousand eyed, whoring, spiritual beast.

The creature that I made next was a giant slug-lizard face that consisted of on eyes just a giant mouth. It’s tongue was an arm and hand, grabbing onto anything that it saw (with a single eye hanging from the back of it’s tonsil), and consuming it. It’s many arms were but tentacled necks with it’s hands being arm-tongue faces too. Whatever it ate, it grew and hoarded. It lived in a giant slime-covered shell. It was the blind, tasteless spirit of the consumer.

I also played with the spirit nemesis/controller (that looked like a bit like Sauron’s eye) to represent our thirst for power and control as people of the west; the Breeder (spirit of conformitism) it’s imagery depicting the Egyptian sun; the Deziak (spirit of lust) it’s appearance depicting sensationalism and sexual excitement (nothing crude); the Excellence (spirit of perfection) it’s appearance of a golden horned star goat, appearing to look very masonic and cult-like but ideal, dripping gold from it’s beard and meditating like the Buddha, offering perfection and wisdom to all that glorified perfection.

The final spirit was the spirit of truth (the Dahktile), which was absent from the city and lived on mountains. (I’ve often associated prophets with the mountains). It looks demonically hideous and foul. Not on it’s own accord, but by the scars we placed upon it’s once beautiful body. It lost it’s beauty the more people twisted truth, corrupted it’s appearance and distorted it’s value in the world.

The dragon-bird blinded-like spirit-beast blesses anyone that seeks it out, regards it and cherishes it. Often people are too afraid to approach it because of it’s sinister appearance.

The reason why I did these things at song a young age was because I was sick of seeing people chase after sex, perfection, power, coolness and material gain. At Oxford Falls Grammar school I scared my Christian teachers and friends when I painted this beast flying out of my hollow eyes into a dark frightening looking sky. This was for a project, ‘Me, Myself and I’. I couldn’t focus on ‘me’. While everyone was painting plastic ‘life is good’ images around their portraits, I had to paint what I wanted people to get offended with: truth. It was absent in everyone elses work. No one was embracing the realities of life, but depicting their wants and desires. I saw this as idolatry (by my Christian friends in a Christian school).

The teacher loved it, but everyone else thought I was suicidal. I remember saying, “If you hide this painting, this painting is condemning you for the truth you prefer to avoid ever confronting”. I said it again to the teacher when she said she needed to hide it for parent teacher night. My painting SCREAMED truth – accepting things that we don’t generally want to confront. If we don’t keep confronting the truth’s of reality, we are stuck with our idols. We don’t grow or mature. We are going backwards if we hold to our ideals and idols.

I didn’t realise the significance of what I stumbled upon in year 9. It was hard and the cost was great. I learnt something that no High School system or Christian Church could teach me. I went through such hard ship as I’ve had to stand up for myself and others and have done things I never thought were possible. I’ve Rejected Plato’s Apple. Have you?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Colossian-Heresy

A great read of what heresy Paul was combatting in the Colossian church. Here are snippet of what was said:

“Of the “pleroma,” ISBE states:

“For the Gnostics God is the ultimate, nameless, unknowable being called the ‘Abyss.’  He is perfect, but the material world is alien to the divine nature.  How, then, does it come to exist at all?  What is the source of its imperfections and evils?  The Gnostic answer is that the FULNESS (Gr. pleroma) of the diety could flow out in no other way than in emanations or aeons or angels, all of which are necessarily imperfect, the highest of them being more spiritual than the grade immediately below.  Of these aeons there is a gradation so numerous that at length the lowest of them is almost wholly corporeal, the spiritual element having been gradually diminished or eliminated until at last the world of mankind and of matter is reached, the abode of evil.  In this way the gulf is bridged between God and mankind.  The highest aeons approximate closely the divine nature, so spiritual are they and so free from matter.  These form the highest hierarchy of angels, and these with many other grades of angelic hosts are to be worshiped. (p. 488, vol. 2, “Gnosticism”)

We see this Gnostic belief in the need to worship the angelic host specifically referred to later in the letter (Col. 2:18).  Paul’s argument for the primacy of Christ, which began in verse 15, rebuts the Gnostic teaching on the nature of the Godhead.  It is not through the hierarchy of angels (aeons) that Christians are reconciled to God, but rather through His son, Yeshua the Messiah.”

This here is key for me, as I was keen to do an article on the ‘Doctrine of Demons’ and how that it was related to the Greek and present times. Below they say it better than I could.

“COLOSSIANS 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe [ta stoicheia tou kosmou], and not according to Christ. (NRSV)

Paul gets to the heart of the problem in verse 8.  He warns the Colossians of the devious philosophy the Gnostics were promoting and labels their doctrines the traditions of men (see Matt. 15:1-9; Mark 7:1-13), as well as the teaching of demons.”

We need anti-Gnostic teachers today to help cleanse the church from these teachings from ‘doctrines of demons’. Or as the NRSV so nicely put it philosophies of ‘elemental spirits of the universe’.

“What’s the difference between thinking like a Hebrew and thinking like a Greek?  No, there’s no punch line, let me explain.

When I say Hebrew or Greek,  I’m not necessarily referring to the concept of nationality.  Rather, I’m talking about the difference between eastern and western mentality, or more specifically – the difference between a Scriptural and a worldly mentality.  You see, when I speak of thinking Hebraically I’m not talking about thinking like a Jewish person.  Nor am I saying that having a Greek mindset is referring to a person of Greek heritage.  It really is a picture of thinking either biblically or worldly.

God created the Hebrew people and their way of life.  He invented a people that would follow Him by entering a covenant relationship with Him.  That means whether a person is a natural born Jew or a Gentile, they are a part of God’s family if they’ve accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior…”

Read the entire post here:

http://www.ezekielthree.com/Ezekielthree/Hebrew_vs_Greek.html

James Thwaites open up Chapter 4 of his book ‘Renegotiating the Church Contract’ with the following:

“The Platonic worldview did not come from God. It is not taught in Scripture. It should have no place in defining either the nature or the purpose of the church. Our challenge is that its leaven has worked its way substantially through what we deem to be the primary expression of the church – that being the local church organisation… There is quite some difficulty in describing something that does not exist or at its best unknowable. This is the challenge when it comes to examining the nature of the platonic regime.

It is the unknowability or inaccessibility of the Platonic realm that is… the source of its power over so many people’s lives. To uncover the reasons for its elusive sway over the Western and Christian minds we need to look into the way it taps into and turns the creation reality away from the good.”

James Thwaites then goes on to talk about the transcendence and immanence of God.

I would like this post to explore the different realities of God both the Platonic and the Hebraic world views offer.

I think it is about time we explore the Hebraic and Platonic World views. One is a godly world view – the other, unfortunately (I believe) is demonic in so many ways.

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HEBRAIC WORLD VIEW

The Hebrews believe God is in all things.

God brings the sun. God brings the rain. The Israelites saw God move powerfully in pagan Egypt. They saw their God meet with them powerfully at the Sea of Aquaba, the Sinai wilderness and deserts. They saw their God live, dwell and fight with them as they came into pagan Canaan. They saw God in the temple, in their children, the elders, the family and the community.

They knew God was in the sun and the rain, in the heat of the day, the morning mist and in the cool among the grazing cattle.

They saw God express His beauty through the flowers and his gentleness through the seeds of a dandelion (if they have them their). They saw his strength and might expressed through thunder, storm, fire and mountain. They saw his wisdom and life hold things together, they saw his love expressed through community, they saw his richness expressed through perfumes, mineral and solar system. You get the idea.

But God is also found in pain and in loss. His judgment was seen in famine and disease. He was also found in struggle. In the bible He wrestled with Jacob and struggled with His relationship with Israel (there is a significant link between the two as Israel means . In that struggle with Israel, Israel saw their God cares for them and loves them. Israel saw God choose to limit Himself within His creation and also saw Him respond with human emotion and vulnerability. Their God was incredibly engaged with their creation. If you look at the bible – he is not often talked about transcending outside of time. He CHOOSES to operate within time. We also observe that the first heaven (earth’s atmosphere), the second heaven (the great vacuum of space) and third heaven (invisible realm) are all connected and have a place WITHIN creation, not beyond.

Artistically, God is the painter’s, the writer’s, the singer’s, the worker’s, the artist’s best friend.

With this perspective, we see God fully at work in His creation and in His community with the Hebraic world view.

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PLATONIC WORLD VIEW

The pagans, (we’ll say through platonic thinking), believed that their God’s were not in all things.

James Thwaites says:

“Plato’s power to deceive comes from the way in which he made use of the perfections (attributes, nature and power) of the eternal transcendent God. He made these the focus or the goal for human existence. There is a semblance of truth here, in that these eternal perfections do actually exist in God. But… they are infinitely out of reach. Things like the eternal, the ideal, divine holiness, absolute knowledge and the like exist only in the transcendent God himself…

Plato’s ploy was to make the focus of life and truth something and somewhere outside the scope of human experience. He disconnected truth and reality from the life of the image bearer in creation and (supposedly) attached them directly to the infinite. Thus, rather than travelling in, through and over the finite revelation of God in creation, people were dislocated from their present life. Essentially what Plato has done in messing with our mind is to make us focus on the perfect and ideal rather than the good and created relational present.”

Our everyday life in creation is considered to be the backdrop, the waiting bay, the shadowlands waiting to the defining moment when ‘it’ all comes into focus. The platonic realm is ever inaccessible to people because reality is always elsewhere – that being said, there are a group of people in the Platonic programme, the elite, who have special knowledge of this ideal realm. There are the chosen few who are in contact with the ‘eternal’. These ‘philosopher kings’…”

We can see that Plato with this philosophy is seemingly treating the human race and creation like a donkey and has offered us the carrot that we will never obtain. This philosophy is Gnostic in origin as we try to obtain that level in God so that we can be more like Him. With this mental thought/wiring in striving to that ‘closeness’, we start the religious road to enlightenment. Therefore, we are often trying to see what God wants us to see and are struggling to obtain an enlightenment that so called prophets, evangelists and ‘apostles’ already have… ‘supposedly’. We can deny religion as much as we want, but unless we desperately seek truth, (commune with God, focus on the gospel, return to our first love and use the mind of Christ God has given us), we will fail. Now that we are aware of how we are taught to think, this religious philosophy has a much weaker and powerless grip over our minds.

Think about this. Think long and hard about this. How does advertising work? How do governments speak to get re-elected? How do leaders speak to congregations? Why are church visionaries so exalted? How do corporate businessman or bosses speak to their staff?

With the exaltation of the ideal, (the perfect, the transcended, the glorified, the pure, etc), all being associated with the divine, we see a division of the divine with the fallen, corrupted, muddied understanding of the world. Lets see what Jesus has done with this philosophy of Plato by coming to earth and doing the work He came to do in obedience to His Father.

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REFORMED WORLD VIEW

The Hebrew God who revealed himself as Jesus completely turns this platonic agenda upside down, exposing it as a lie. The Gospel, (the Good News, who IS Jesus Christ) exposed this lie. He revealed that God IS in us and not far away at all. He is a God that revealed himself as both HUMAN and DIVINE, that goes against the philosophies of Plato’s gospel. Let’s see how he does this through His incarnation and ministry:

Jesus Christ’s ministry exposed the lie of the Platonic Philosophy. This is just one thing he did to the platonic. From the Hebraic World view, this is what we too are called to do like Christ.

In Jesus’ life, what revealed His perfection, His godliness and His glorious aspects of His Father (Love, Wisdom, Word, Faith, Hope, Forgiveness, Mercy, Peace, Gentleness, Light, etc), was His willingness to engage His Father’s creation. Through Jesus’ challenges, His wisdom and authority and love and faithfulness was revealed.

When God made the first Adam, He gave Adam an untamed garden/wilderness to TAME. Since the first Adam knew NOT what sin was, he would learn how to face the challenges he would come up against in the wild and untamed creation. Adam was to GROW into the fullness of the creation that God called him into.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil seems to be the short-cut/robbery of man experiencing this discovery of creation. Adam was to grow up into all things like God was, but THROUGH the creation He was placed in. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil operated outside of God’s agenda, and undermined the gift of creation to man and its purpose it served in relation to God.

Hidden in creations DNA was a hidden function that responded to mans actions to it. When man chose to eat of the forbidden tree, creation RESPONDED to Adam by bringing in death, thorns and sweat to seemingly prevent him from entering INTO the fullness of the creation.

What Jesus revealed through His ministry on earth, is how relational God is to man THROUGH His creation; and how we are to walk through it TO inherit CREATIONS fullness. This is TESTIMONY. Read the gospels again.

If Jesus did not encounter opposition; if Jesus did not encounter angry mobs, hard questions, dangerous sea-storms, angelic temptations, puberty, sweat, frustration, pressure, tears and death, what proof would we have that he is God?

To truly show He was a God of purity, he fell in the dust and filth of the streets while carrying his cross – still sinless until his final hours. He embraced sin, the curse and death. Since he became our sin, we can push on through our shortcomings. We can be thankful that He is willing to deal with our impurities by becoming those impure things. But in our relationship with Him, he chooses to work through our short-comings, sicknesses, greeds, lusts so that we may turn to Him to take us out from such acts. He dealt with all these impurities! This is the God who loves us that we know!

In further examining the New testament, we see Jesus revealed as Judge, Love and also the God who holds death in His hands. With this Hebraic pattern laid out in front of us, what is revealed is that through our suffering, God is there WITH us. In our sin and imperfection, God is there WITH us. This is what the gospel revealed – but this is something that the Jews had an understanding about all along (until they were exiled and started adopting pagan beliefs into their own). We will all face the death of love ones, but death, struggle and pain will help shape us into the PERFECT will of the Father, just as it did Christ. Christ was born as an infant and walked into the fullness His Father laid out before Him, by having His Son embrace difficulties, trials and judgments.

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THE PERFECT TWIST

Now Plato has twisted the Hebraic meaning of the word ‘perfect’. For when God said ‘be perfect just as I am perfect’, James Thwaites beautifully writes:

“When the word ‘perfect’ (teleios) is used in scripture in relation to our lives, it refers to our being who we were made to be. When Jesus speaks of being perfect like our heavenly Father is perfect he speaks of our journey towards the fullness of who we are, not a journey to arrive at the actual perfection of God Himself.”

This means I can value my journey with God intimately and appreciate where others are with God in their personal journeys with Him.

Now it is important to note how creation responded to the death of the man who did overcome IT through His death and Resurrection. This is also talked about in Romans 8. It says how we through Jesus’ Spirit, now walk on His road of suffering into the fullness of the creation that can’t wait to be liberated. Christ laid down the Hebraic world view and plan down through His ‘perfect’ life. With His Spirit in us now, we all walk in our ‘perfection’ into maturity and fullness like Him.

We shall embrace other people’s short-comings/sins and embrace the grave like Him. But we too shall be raised like Him.

I pray that Jesus will reform your philosophy and your world view. (Yes this is brainwashing! But at least NOW you KNOW who is doing the washing!)

Now that we are in communion with God, He has made us ‘perfect’ in His creation and among His human family. Enjoy the adventures of life and learn to rest with yourself, in God in His creation. You, as a Christian will endure incredible hardship and will have to learn to embrace the thorns, sweat, tears and death in your life, just like Christ did, so that you may grow into the fullness with God in this life. You will have adventures and stories to tell children. You’re life will be full of rich memories! People around you will see what you go through WITH God and will see Him through your trials when you acknowledge that He is there among those dark times.

So I encourage you to shake off the shackles of Plato’s lies and walk in ‘perfection’ through these God-given difficulties of this present creation. Don’t take short-cuts or escape the realities of this present creation. Engage WITH THEM! Let God reveal what YOU are capable of in His life!

Learn to enjoy your hardships !

Until next time… Think Hebraic, not Platonic!

Jake

The Gospel Of Experience

Well! This took me by surprise. I wrongly referred to Bacchus being the Greek God of wine. In fact that is the Roman interpretation of the Greek God Dionysus.

In researching further Dionysus’ character and what he represents, his influence in the church is much more recognizable than I thought so originally. Dyonysus is the Greek god of wine, ecstasy and self-gratification. He is also related to frenzied madness that could lead to murder and also inspires ritual mysticism, dance, fervor or madness. (Wine or ecstatic experiences were used in many greek ritual.)

Dionysus wears a fox-skin which symbolizes new life, but is also depicted wearing a leopard skin or shown riding a leopard. He was also accompanied with Pan (god of music).

In Athens there were festivals in his honour known as the Greater Dionysia and the Lesser Dionysia. The festivals were performed enthusiastically through religious fervor, ecstastic experiences and were orgasmic in nature. The center of this worship was called the sparagmos. A worshipful act was performed where  people would tear apart a live animal, eat it’s flesh and drink it’s blood, believing they were partaking of the god’s body and blood.

The Greeks believed they could obtain something of Dionysus, (that being his resurrection-like nature). The Greeks believed that Dionysus was born from His dead mother which Zeus (the Father) killed, due to Hera’s trickery. As a result of the death of Dionysus’ mother, Zeus delivered her child and continued to grow the child in his thigh by cutting it open and placing the supposed dead child in his body before being birthed from the side of his leg. This is how the Greeks believed Dionysus was born twice.

Thus in their festivals, it was believed once a year, Dionysus would be resurrected from the dead to play a fertility role in these rituals and ceremonies. The Greeks believed that Dionysus stayed with Persephone’s home in the underworld, hoping one day get his dead birth-mother back from the under world – Semele. He would be summoned up from Hades through these rituals. Thus doctrines and dramas/performances would play a dominant role in these festivals and rituals. After the major festival, the spirit of Dionysus would return to the underworld and stay with Persophone in an attempt to find his mother.

The Five Counterfeits

Let’s see if we can now DISCERN a similar spirit to Dionysus in the church today… It is INDEED present!

Has anyone else picked up how much drinking the ‘new wine’ is in the church these days? Combine that with ministries heavily promoting worship ‘experiences’, ‘ekstasis worship experiences’, ‘drunken glory movements’, ‘smashed in God’s presence meetings’… You start possibly seeing a similar spirit.

This gospel message starts on the GRACE road! But c’mon! Get that NEW LIFE inta ‘ya! Get plastered by Jesus! Daddy wants YOU to have FUN! This gospel emphasizes grace to the point that it’s hedonistic agenda starts detatching believers from the gospel, the bible, other believers, churches and community. It’s an alternate reality. The results, (from personal experience), is devastating. People’s eyes have turned to God’s hands and not His heart. Their eyes follow experiences and eventually – God hands them over to those experiences. People worship the experiences they want for fun’s sake. It is also easy to enter into this kind of experience. It is the role of the hypocrite (actor), becoming something that you are not, and surrendering to ‘it’.

They have set their own snare. The experience chasers wait for the next ‘experiential’ leader to give them the next dose of a ‘Holy Ghost Hose down’.

They often use these out-of context scriptures to justify their experiences and motives.

Acts 2:15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose.

And,

Eph 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

To them also, the Song of Solomon’s justifies this drunken glory movement.

But Paul says:

Rom 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Others come to mind, but I can’t find them at the moment. I will publish them when I get the time.

But it’s worse than just chasing experiences… Remember Dionysus is associated with DRAMA! As a person who has studied drama, in these kind of church cultures, I have found it easy to identify those dramatizing something that is not present or faking being in God’s presence. There is holiness and there’s hype.

What’s odd is also the timing of this so-called ‘New Wine’ (Shakir) doctrine hitting the church globally. As soon as a lot of churches returned to the foundations of solid grace teachings, they focus on the Spirit birthing us as new creatures. This is biblical. But do you see the connection here with Dionysus? A doctrine of a SECOND BIRTH.

Scripturally also, we are RESURRECTED with Christ in this NEW LIFE we share with Him. Now this is where it kilter’s off the narrow road. Rather than living a life disciplined and self-controlled by the Spirit, we see something rather hedonistic manifest in our meetings and mimic the role of Christ. Meaning is lost and we don’t know what second birth, new wine or what resurrection life is any more.

I do believe that God wants us to have fun with Him and experience Him to an extent – but I’ve never seen that be a solid focus in any of the Apostle’s teachings. It seems hedonistic in origin, and as a result, a lot of Christian’s are getting so called ‘drunk’, ‘sloshed’, ‘smashed’, or ‘high’ in the glory of God. Unfortunately, I am led to believe we are following the fox-skinned spirit and not a new-wine-skin Spirit which was Christ’s blood and life, now in us.

If this is a counterfeit spirit in today’s church, can you also see how it mimics the Pass-over meal and some of Jesus’ controversial teachings (‘eat me’). I even recently saw on youtube a really belittling Passover meal. This wasn’t it. It was worse. But here is an example of people who go after experiences but lose the sense and meaning of Passover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-WJ-QqUXsQ

By all means question the articles I write. I myself often become a bit spooked of the parallels that run between the Greek gods and the different types of Jesus’ the church is portraying today. I thank God I am made wary of possible counterfeits. If you’re chasing an experiential Jesus, you might end up eating at the table that does not belong to the lords. Test the spirits at all costs!

While the wine represents the blood of the covenant with our God, the wine of Dionysus makes us forget. While we partake in eating the bread and are reminded of the life we partake in through Christ’s Holy Spirit, the animalistic feasts of Dionysus make us forget how we should approach the communion feast, soberly.

Remember that Dionysus is also associated with theatre. Communion is based in reality, not a romantic ideal or occasion which is often portrayed in today’s church as well. With a romantic approach to the cross, a lot more meaning and reality is lost, and so too is Christ’s down to earth message of His love to us.

So I encourage people to beware of the counterfeit wine which belongs to Folly and not get poisoned on Dionysus’ poison ivy concealed in the wine (1). Beware people or groups who turn church into a theatre-scape by faking the spirit, tempting you to fit in and fake it too, OR romanticize doctrines in the bible where the true meaning is lost (2). Beware the temptations to chase wrong experiences out of hedonistic ideals (3). Beware of the ‘New-Wine’, ‘second birth’ doctrines that can lead you down the paths of experiential deception. (5). Beware of the mystic road these experiences can take you down.

Let me say this again in point form so you can possibly observe the counterfeit signs you may come across:

1.     Test the cup you are encouraged to drink from.

2.     Test to see if there are spiritual theatrics in the room.

3.     Test the experiences to see if they are God given.

4.     Test the doctrines that relate to wine and second births.

5.     Know the roads of mysticism and spiritism but avoid them!

In writing this, there are some ministries that I know that fit these descriptions too well. This disturbs me greatly and is freaky! This unfortunately, is the latest Jesus that is being presented to the church. And oddly enough, in relation to theater, it’s followers love to dress up as pirates, princesses, faeries, monks, nuns, super-humans/heroes and odd animals. So I’ve had to update this ‘other’ Gospel accordingly

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THE Experiential GOSPEL

Names: Drunken Glory Movement, Slosh Fest, New Mystics, Ghost Toking, New Wine, Wine Barrel, Crack House,

Works: Spirit encourages people to imitate a stupefied, drunk, stoned or trippy Jesus for hedonistic, ecstatic or experiential sake.

Greek God Gospel: The Gospel of Dionysus/Bacchus

Outcome: ABUSIVE SUBSTANCE

]]> http://rejectingplatosapple.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/gospel-of-dionysus-bacchus/feed/ 2 jakeelliot http://rejectingplatosapple.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/counterfeit-gods/ http://rejectingplatosapple.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/counterfeit-gods/#comments Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:12:04 +0000 jakeelliot http://rejectingplatosapple.wordpress.com/?p=38 ]]> This is a book by Timothy Keller. I want to get this and I want to read it. It sounds like a book that tackles exactly what I am trying to talk about. My sources for writing on the subjects of Plato are the books by James Thwaites, ‘Church Beyond The Congregation’ and ‘Renegotiating the Church Contract’; and also ‘Plato’s Republic, Abridged And Modernised, A Vision of Truth, Justice and The Ideal Society’.

I hope ‘Counterfeit Gods’ deals in this similar vein so I can use this book as another resource for this blog. I have also obtained the so-called complete works of Greek Mythology (Volumes I & II), highly researched into the origins of Greek Mythology and how some were adopted from Egyptian, Aegean, Hebrew, Assyria and Babylon deities and accounts.

I’m writing three articles at the moment.

I’m hoping to get one done soon. In the meantime, I want to post this quick.

I met a Baptist minister who was taught that there was a gulf, void, pit or division separating man from God and that obstacle was sin. I’ve  seen this preached in many churches. I’ve also seen this needs to be stressed to non-believers so they may see the circumstance they are in between god and man.

This logic boggles me. After Adam and Eve fell, God CAME and clothed them. While Cain was thinking about MURDERING his brother, God CAME and warned him about sin’s encroaching presence. When Israel refused to turn to God because of their sin, God  remained with His people through Israel’s prophets.

He kept coming to them with words of pain, warning, affection, promise and hope. God was in love with His called-out people and sin did not stop him from coming down and speaking into their lives. He was fully engaged with His people.

My Hebraic god knows my shortcomings and deals with me on these issues and teaches how I can walk in healing out of my pain and circumstances. He is WITH me even while I sin, even though I may feel Him grieve.

To those that don’t believe Him, they make Him grieve because He sees their hurt and  wishes to live in them to heal them of all their foolish sufferings. SIN DOES NOT SEPARATE GOD FROM MAN. God from the beginning, has proven to us that he keeps coming again and again to grace us and show us mercy.

He knows how fragile we are – but also knows how evil we can choose to be. Nevertheless, He is engaged FULLY in His creation. There is no rift. People can deny God – but He is still in their life blessing them and gracing them too. The scriptures declare that the whole earth is His and that nothing can separate us from the love of God – that seems to include UNBELIEF!

So what hole or rift is that cross actually filling in that diagram?

Hears a clue – the Hebraic sees God in all things. The Platonic divides separates God from all things. I encourage you to examine this topic further.

So I’ll let you do some research into this if you want. But this time you’ll…

Think Platonic! Not Hebraic!

Jake Elliot